Post Made Community Wiki by Rian Fowler
2 added 811 characters in body
source | link

Every time yet another Java team pisses me off, I blow off steam by looking up questions like this one. Let me reiterate. I am a client side dev and have been for close to 5 years now. I've worked on sites ranging from one-off mostly-content microsites, to sites as massive as Sears, to more sophisticated app-type sites where really deep UI expertise is needed. I have dealt with Rails, PHP, .net web forms (ew), .net MVC (much better) and a bouquet arrangement of Java solutions for web development accompanied by devs and teams that have all been complete disasters to deal with. I also write a bit of Python and am self-teachingstarting to dig Django.

My experience with Java teams has been universally awful. The tools are always a PITA. The devs never want to believe they did anything wrong and getting them to reinvestigate their own turf once you've ruled out a problem on your end is like pulling teeth. The first casualty of dealing with Java teams in my experience is development time converted to e-mail time writing multiple lengthy explanations of why the problem is definitely on their end. HTML is generally not their problem unless you actually want some control over it. Then everything is likely to go to hell on their end because you actually want to move some upper level divs around.

There are things about the language I dislike but I think the real problem is the culture and the fact that acceptance is so widespread, you have a ton of mediocrity in the middle. The culture I suspect springs from the way Java is marketed. Write once, deploy everywhere. Translation: "You only need to learn one thing!" People who find that appealing basically want to wield Java like one gigantic hammer for every nail with a minimum of actually honing of their craft in regards to web development.

So if you have devs who know Java and other languages but still actually prefer Java, I would say, yes, go ahead if it seems like the right the solution. But if you have Java devs who know Java and everything else is just barely meeting the criteria to actually make it a bullet point on their resume, have them build a simple app with a variety of semi-complex pages on the HTML end and try this simple test. Break some HTML. Try to get them to figure out what's wrong. If the immediate problem they start to solve is diverting blame from themselves, keep them the !@#$ away from web development. Web dev is multidisciplinary and requires active interest in the field to be successful. It is not a place for people who only want to have to maintain knowledge of one language and are more horrified by problems than interested in solving them.

I'm not asserting that Java itself is the root of incompetence and I've heard Spring is good. I'm sure there's competent Java teams out there. I just haven't run into one yet and I don't think it's a coincidence. I think Sun has a lot to do with it. I also think running web teams like or under IT departments has a lot to do with it.

Every time yet another Java team pisses me off, I blow off steam by looking up questions like this one. Let me reiterate. I am a client side dev and have been for close to 5 years now. I've worked on sites ranging from one-off mostly-content microsites, to sites as massive as Sears, to more sophisticated app-type sites where really deep UI expertise is needed. I have dealt with Rails, PHP, .net web forms (ew), .net MVC (much better) and a bouquet arrangement of Java solutions for web development accompanied by devs and teams that have all been complete disasters to deal with. I also write a bit of Python and am self-teaching Django.

My experience with Java teams has been universally awful. The tools are always a PITA. The devs never want to believe they did anything wrong and getting them to reinvestigate their own turf once you've ruled out a problem on your end is like pulling teeth. HTML is generally not their problem unless you actually want some control over it. Then everything is likely to go to hell on their end because you actually want to move some upper level divs around.

There are things about the language I dislike but I think the real problem is the culture and the fact that acceptance is so widespread, you have a ton of mediocrity in the middle. The culture I suspect springs from the way Java is marketed. Write once, deploy everywhere. Translation: "You only need to learn one thing!" People who find that appealing basically want to wield Java like one gigantic hammer for every nail with a minimum of actually honing of their craft in regards to web development.

So if you have devs who know Java and other languages but still actually prefer Java, I would say, yes, go ahead if it seems like the right the solution. But if you have Java devs, build a simple app with a variety of semi-complex pages on the HTML end and try this simple test. Break some HTML. Try to get them to figure out what's wrong. If the immediate problem they start to solve is diverting blame from themselves, keep them the !@#$ away from web development.

Every time yet another Java team pisses me off, I blow off steam by looking up questions like this one. Let me reiterate. I am a client side dev and have been for close to 5 years now. I've worked on sites ranging from one-off mostly-content microsites, to sites as massive as Sears, to more sophisticated app-type sites where really deep UI expertise is needed. I have dealt with Rails, PHP, .net web forms (ew), .net MVC (much better) and a bouquet arrangement of Java solutions for web development accompanied by devs and teams that have all been complete disasters to deal with. I also write a bit of Python and am starting to dig Django.

My experience with Java teams has been universally awful. The tools are always a PITA. The devs never want to believe they did anything wrong and getting them to reinvestigate their own turf once you've ruled out a problem on your end is like pulling teeth. The first casualty of dealing with Java teams in my experience is development time converted to e-mail time writing multiple lengthy explanations of why the problem is definitely on their end. HTML is generally not their problem unless you actually want some control over it. Then everything is likely to go to hell on their end because you actually want to move some upper level divs around.

There are things about the language I dislike but I think the real problem is the culture and the fact that acceptance is so widespread, you have a ton of mediocrity in the middle. The culture I suspect springs from the way Java is marketed. Write once, deploy everywhere. Translation: "You only need to learn one thing!" People who find that appealing basically want to wield Java like one gigantic hammer for every nail with a minimum of actually honing of their craft in regards to web development.

So if you have devs who know Java and other languages but still actually prefer Java, I would say, yes, go ahead if it seems like the right solution. But if you have Java devs who know Java and everything else is just barely meeting the criteria to actually make it a bullet point on their resume, have them build a simple app with a variety of semi-complex pages on the HTML end and try this simple test. Break some HTML. Try to get them to figure out what's wrong. If the immediate problem they start to solve is diverting blame from themselves, keep them the !@#$ away from web development. Web dev is multidisciplinary and requires active interest in the field to be successful. It is not a place for people who only want to have to maintain knowledge of one language and are more horrified by problems than interested in solving them.

I'm not asserting that Java itself is the root of incompetence and I've heard Spring is good. I'm sure there's competent Java teams out there. I just haven't run into one yet and I don't think it's a coincidence. I think Sun has a lot to do with it. I also think running web teams like or under IT departments has a lot to do with it.

1
source | link

Every time yet another Java team pisses me off, I blow off steam by looking up questions like this one. Let me reiterate. I am a client side dev and have been for close to 5 years now. I've worked on sites ranging from one-off mostly-content microsites, to sites as massive as Sears, to more sophisticated app-type sites where really deep UI expertise is needed. I have dealt with Rails, PHP, .net web forms (ew), .net MVC (much better) and a bouquet arrangement of Java solutions for web development accompanied by devs and teams that have all been complete disasters to deal with. I also write a bit of Python and am self-teaching Django.

My experience with Java teams has been universally awful. The tools are always a PITA. The devs never want to believe they did anything wrong and getting them to reinvestigate their own turf once you've ruled out a problem on your end is like pulling teeth. HTML is generally not their problem unless you actually want some control over it. Then everything is likely to go to hell on their end because you actually want to move some upper level divs around.

There are things about the language I dislike but I think the real problem is the culture and the fact that acceptance is so widespread, you have a ton of mediocrity in the middle. The culture I suspect springs from the way Java is marketed. Write once, deploy everywhere. Translation: "You only need to learn one thing!" People who find that appealing basically want to wield Java like one gigantic hammer for every nail with a minimum of actually honing of their craft in regards to web development.

So if you have devs who know Java and other languages but still actually prefer Java, I would say, yes, go ahead if it seems like the right the solution. But if you have Java devs, build a simple app with a variety of semi-complex pages on the HTML end and try this simple test. Break some HTML. Try to get them to figure out what's wrong. If the immediate problem they start to solve is diverting blame from themselves, keep them the !@#$ away from web development.