This just struck me as an oversight by Microsoft. Since arrays and other data-structures within the .NET framework begin from zero (zero-based) why don't we have a line 0 within the code view in Visual Studio?
Ponder that one :-)
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Visual Studio is older than .NET. By a lot. (True, it is written in another zer-based language, but my point is no .NET convention should be assumed to drive Visual Studio decisions.)– Kate GregoryAug 18, 2011 at 14:09
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en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_number– StuperUserAug 18, 2011 at 14:09
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Because no one answering this question has a sense of humour? ;-)– ArjailerAug 18, 2011 at 14:53
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2Every commercial product has a product manager / marketing director, whose job it is to maximize the friendliness and minimize the shock value to buyers, so they buy. Only programmers think zero is the first number.– Mike DunlaveyAug 18, 2011 at 16:10
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1@MikeDunlavey, but the point is, Visual Studio is made for programmers!– svickMay 8, 2012 at 0:47
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6 Answers
Because they did a good job at separating the user model from the programming model, that's why. The same reason why most apps don't ask you, for example,
Please enter a varchar(200) representing your name.
Take a lesson from that.
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2Great answer. A lot of programmers can benefit from thinking like a user again. Aug 18, 2011 at 21:40
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I agree with this answer, but I don't think this answer is necessarily as obvious as JohnFx's tone would imply. In the case of Visual Studio (or any IDE), there's no difference between the "user model" and the "programming model", since all users are likely programmers. If I am writing software for some aliens who use a base-37 numerical system, my user model will necessarily display integers in base-37. So, if I'm writing an IDE for programmers, who are most likely used to thinking in zero-based indexing, isn't that also my user model?? Jul 17, 2014 at 21:06
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I strongly disagree. Just because the user is a programmer does not make zero based counting part of the user model. Programmers only use zero based systems because the compiler expects it. Now if you were writing software where a COMPUTER was the user I would agree. I've been a programmer all my life and I do not count real world objects starting with zero.– JohnFxJul 18, 2014 at 20:34
- All arrays and data-structures are indexed based on zero, not just in .NET.
- Array indexes are numbered for the computer, text lines in a document are numbered for us.
- See screenshot :)
answered Aug 18, 2011 at 11:16
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12"All array and data-structures are indexed based on zero" -- this is not true, all arrays are not zero-indexed, though it's quite common these days. Many historical languages used mathematical-style 1-based indexing (Fortran and COBOL come to mind) but even the more modern Lua uses 1-based indexing. Aug 18, 2011 at 12:21
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1@Dean Harding I meant they are - internally. Numbering them from 1 is sort of syntax sugar. At least this is my understanding...? Anyhow, .NET standard is much more of a rule than an exception in this aspect. Aug 18, 2011 at 12:24
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Worth noting than VS is not the only editor doing this and that it would be harsh to blame it for its behavior. Even Emacs numbers lines starting from 1 (and rightly so, as you pointed out).– haylemAug 18, 2011 at 13:36
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1@Dean - Actually in fortran you can start the lower index at whatever you want a(0:19), a(-19,19) ... it is only by default that they start at one a(19) assumes the lower bound is 1. I do understand the point you were trying to make however.– RookAug 18, 2011 at 14:28
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There is a difference between counting and indexing. The index can start at any number (some languages support that), but for many reasons it is most often practical to have it start at zero. Counting also starts at zero, but as soon as one does count a set that is not empty, the first element is 1, and so on.
Because it is not natural to assume that the first line is the 0th line. Much like it's not natural either that arrays first element is at 0. However that's the first number that can be used in an unsigned integer to index an array with. So instead of wasting one element we use it.
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4In the case of counting, you say how many elements you have. While in indexing, you merely tell the difference to the base index.– IngoAug 18, 2011 at 13:12
By convention, normal humans count starting from 1, while many programmers and some mathematicians count starting from 0.
The question you have raised about line numbers is not specific to Microsoft Visual Studio. It applies to every other text editor tool, because counting lines from 1 has been adopted as a universal convention in software.
The countless other tools that count text lines from 1 include Windows Notepad, IDE text editors, text editors on Linux, Firefox's JavaScript console, compiler error messages, and so on and so forth.
While it wouldn't be wrong to count lines starting from 0, it would break the established convention and cause a massive amount of confusion to everyone involved, from the developers to the users.
See also:
- Why are structs/arrays zero based? (SE Programmers)
- Defend zero-based arrays (Stack Overflow)
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I don't know any mathematicians (and I do know quite a few) that start counting from one. They deal with 0 when needed in where needed, but in real life they all count from one.– RookAug 18, 2011 at 14:26
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Except for numbering floors in European countries. For some reason that is zero based.– JohnFxJan 9, 2018 at 21:56
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@Kenneth Yes it would. If a compiler told you an error occurred on line 5 (1-based, as per convention), but you jump to line 5 (0-based, as per the question) in your text editor, that is exactly the problem that would happen by breaking conventions.– NayukiOct 20 at 4:37
A link which counters some of Dijkstra's points (in an article which is sooner or later gonna come out in this discussion).
