If Java is a general purpose language, and building a program is something that can be described using the Java language, why isn't this the best way to write build files and instead we use tools like Ant, Maven, and Gradle? Wouldn't that be more straightforward, and also remove the need to learn yet another programming language? (BTW - this question can also be applied to other languages, like C#)
Specific Tool for a Specific Purpose
General purpose languages are often too verbose. If I had to manage a build in Java, I'd be very depressed very quickly by the size of the beast. However, it could easily be manageable using a DSL written in Java. And to some extent that's how you can see Gradle (for Groovy) and Buildr (for Ruby).
General purpose languages are hard. Well I don't think programming is hard and can't be picked up by anyone, but the point is: your build engineer isn't necessarily your programmer!
That's more or less at the intersection of difficulty and verbosity. A language is designed for a purpose, and here we're talking about something very specific. So why would you need or want to use a general purpose language? For builds, you need:
- branches and conditionals to handle separate configurations, environments, etc...
- a set of instructions to extract data from your environment,
- a set of instructions to produce deliverables.
You don't really need much more.
Sure it's annoying when your build system seems like it's not flexible enough for that one special use case you're after, but it's probably far better than the alternative for most people.
That's probably why there's a polarity between people who prefer declarative build systems over most programmable onces: I guess a developer might have a natural tendency to look for ways to break out of the box.
Wait, Do We Really Need a Tool?
Another related question would be: do we really need a build tool? Isn't the fact that they exist in all languages the sign that they fill a gap that shouldn't even be there in the first place?
Some languages don't necessarily require a build tool. For instance, most scripting languages don't need one and resolve at load time. Or take Go, whose compiler will handle everything for you, which is a nice counterpoint: what if a compiler like gcc suddenly didn't need a bunch of flags, a linker, and a makefile to die everything together? Or if javac didn't need a build.xml or pom.xml to tell him what to do? Shouldn't dependency management directly be part of the language's own tooling, as the dependencies are a part of the final program?
It surely seems like a much simpler approach for the user (the builder). Though one could argue they're just doing in under the hood and taking away your choice and opportunities to influence that build process (but then you'd hope such a tool allows compiler extensions and similar things). Plus we used to see the tools and the language as two separate things, so he might seem unpure to suddenly have them so tightly coupled.
I don't think the language you use to build your programs is sthe issue. It's the language you use to program and its core platform and tooling that should matter, and we're still making headway on that.
Personally, I've used make/gmake/autotools/pmk and been happy with them for C, and I started with Java when all we had was make, then ant, and now I'm generally preferring Maven over all these alternatives. Though I can see value in gradle, buildr and others, but I like the prevalence of maven so far, until a more significant shift occurs. Plus I like that it's rigid, but still leaves you the ability to work around that if necessary. That it's not easy is a good thing.
It's a build tool. Just learn to embrace it and don't fight it. It's a losing battle. Or at least a very very long one.
Java is an imperative language,
Maven, etc. are declarative languages:
We could define the difference as follows:
- Imperative programming: telling the "machine" how to do something, and as a result what you want to happen will happen.
- Declarative programming: telling the "machine" what you would like to happen, and let the computer figure out how to do it.1
Build languages tell the builder what should be done, from where it should be taken, etc. The engine which runs the build (which is written in an imperative language, like @ElliottFrisch has noted), reads these instructions, and fulfills them.
Declarative languages may seem more appropriate in build scenarios, since build tasks are generally the same all over, and it is considered more maintainable and readable in that form than in full-fledged code form.
If you look at the features of a typical build system you find:
- Lots of data: names, switches, settings, configuration items, strings, etc
- Lots of interaction with the environment: commands, environment variables
- A relatively straightforward "build engine" handling dependencies, threading, logging etc.
If you set out to write a series of build files using some language (Java/C#/Python/etc), by about the third or fourth iteration you would settle on (a) keeping most of the data and external commands as data in something like XML (b) writing the "build engine" in your favorite language.
You would also find it useful to treat some of the data in your XML as an interpreted language, to trigger various features in the build engine. You might also interpret some macros or perform string substitutions, in the data.
In other words, you would finish up with Make, or Ant, or Rake, or MsBuild. An imperative language for the things it does well, and data structures to describe what you want to do, now usually in XML.
A number of factors count against using Java/C++/C# in these cases.
Firstly, you'd have to compile your build script before you could run it to build your app. How would you specify any packages, flags, compiler versions, tool paths needed to build your build script? Certainly, you could come up with a way around it, but its much more straightforward to have either have a language that doesn't need that build step (e.g. python) or a language that your build tool natively understands.
Secondly, build files are data heavy whereas Java/C++/C# are much more geared towards writing code and algorithms. Java and friends don't have a very succinct representation of all the data you'd want to store.
Thirdly, Java and friends need a lot of boilerplate to be valid. The build file would have to be inside a method inside a class with all of its imports. When using a scripting language or custom language you can avoid all that boilerplate and just have the build details themselves.
Indeed! Why not use a powerful and expressive language for a problem that is more complex than people often (initially) think? Especially when the people facing the problem are already competent with such a language. (Building is programmers' own problem and best solved by programmers.)
I also asked myself this question years ago and decided that Java is a good language for defining builds, especially for Java projects. And, as a result, I started doing something about it.
DISCLAIMER: In this answer I am promoting iwant, a build system I am developing. But since this is an opinionated discussion anyway, I'm sure it's ok.
I won't elaborate on the benefits of Java (power and expressiveness) or iwant specifically. If you are interested, you can read more on the iwant page.
Instead I'll consider why Java (and other GPLs) is so readily dismissed as unsuitable for building. Many answers and comments here are good examples of such thinking. Let's consider some of the typical arguments:
"Java is imperative, but builds are best defined in a declarative way", they might say.
True. But when using a language as a metalanguage for an internal DSL, what really counts is its syntax. Even an imperative language like Java can be tricked to be declarative. If it looks and feels declarative, it is (for practical purposes) declarative. For example:
JacocoTargetsOfJavaModules.with() .jacocoWithDeps(jacoco(), modules.asmAll.mainArtifact()) .antJars(TestedIwantDependencies.antJar(), TestedIwantDependencies.antLauncherJar()) .modules(interestingModules).end().jacocoReport(name)
This is a real example from the demo project of iwant.
In fact, compare this to some supposedly declarative build systems that expose their users to such imperative verbs as "test" or "compile". The above declaration contains only nouns, no verbs. Compiling and testing are tasks implicitly handled by iwant in order to grant the user the nouns he/she wants. It's not the language. It's how you use it.
"Java is verbose"
Yes, a lot of Java code out there is verbose. But again, it's not the language, it's how you use it. If an implementation is verbose, just encapsulate it behind a nice abstraction. Many GPLs provide adequate mechanisms for this.
Just imagine the above Java snippet written in XML. Replace parentheses with angle brackets and move them around. And then duplicate every keyword as a closing tag! Java as a syntax is not verbose.
(I know, comparing to XML is like taking candy from a baby, but so many builds just happen to be defined in XML.)
"You'd have to compile your build script"
This is a valid point. Nevertheless, it's just a minor technical problem to be solved. I could have solved it by using beanshell or some other interpreter. Instead, I solved it by treating it as just another build problem and bootstrapping iwant with a simple shell or ant script that compiles and runs a simple Java bootstrapper.
"Java has boilerplate"
True. You have to import classes, you have to mention "public", "class" and so on. And here simple external DSLs score an initial easy win.
And if your project is so trivial that this boilerplate is significant, congratulations. Your problem isn't a difficult one and it really doesn't matter how you solve it.
But many projects need a lot more than compilation, coverage report and packaging. If the boilerplate of Java is acceptable for customers' problems, why not build problems? Why make shoes only for others' children?
One thing I don't think the other answers have addressed is that the limitations and transparency of these build languages is a huge part of what makes them useful. Let's take Maven, for example. Yes, it executes builds but it also defines dependencies. This allows for a Maven build to pull down those dependencies and look at their dependencies and so on and so forth.
Consider if this was done with Java directly. The build tool would see that there is a dependency. It would then need to pull down so other Java application and execute it to determine what it's dependencies are. But for Maven, it simply looks at the dependency declarations. The maven build file is transparent. A Turing complete language is inherently non-transparent and therefore are inferior for some purposes such as this one.
protected by maple_shaft♦ Mar 26 '14 at 10:50
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